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 Suggestions for Vehicles

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Namorax
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PostSubject: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 1:58

The problem with vehicles is that people tend to afk in them, use them as some kind of hero-replacement and the general unhappyness about the current fuel-system.
These are the problems I observed ingame and which were also discussed on the forum:

-People take a summoner and hide their hero in a vehicle. They only leave it when they need to re-summon or are forced to because of a mission objective.
-Any hero with Repair (Autocast: On) is used inside a vehicle to give it an improvised "self-heal". They also never leave the vehicle unless necessary.
-The distance you can travel with 1 Unit of Fuel is not enough. Many players complain that they spend more time running around to gather the fuel, compared to actually using the vehicle in a fight or to cover distances fast.


Possible suggestions gathered in this thread:
-Use the trigger "Activate/Deactivate Ability" to remove "Repair" and Aura-Abilities as long as a hero is inside a vehicle.
This will force the players to be outside of a vehicle if they want to repair it. Aura-Abilities should be deactivated because the heroes who use them shouldn't hide inside a tank. following a Hero with leadership-aura who hides in a tank doesnt seem very leaderlike.

-Check if the Player has any living summons, and destroy deactivate them when the hero enters a vehicle.
This is supposed to stop a hero from hiding in a vehicle and using only their summons to fight.
The Alternative would be to temporarily make the summons "Passive neutral" as long as the hero is inside a vehicle. This forces the player to choose either summons or vehicles to fight. Having both seems to be a bit cowardly, espescially if the creeps never see the hero itself because he hides behind steel. The summons should not be forced to remain in a fixed radius around the hero. The previous "explanation" was only meant to say that the armor of the vehicles is interfering with the signals the summoner sends to his summons.


-Add an easier way to refuel the vehicles.
Current suggestions were a "Gas-Station" somewhere in town and using the "Fuel-Tank-Cars" as driving Depots.

-Add "Injuries" to vehicles.
It was suggested that vehicles could "malfunction" when they are constantly battered by the living dead. Examples are "Engine Failure/Malfunction", "Slashed Wheel", "Jammed Weapon", "Broken Axis", "Damaged Sensors" and "ITS GONNA EXPLODE!!!".
I suggest that the CurrentHP% of the vehicle influence the chances to receive a malfunction. The lower the Current HP, the higher the chance. Malfunctions are removed once the vehicle's hp are surpass a specific value.
Example: "Engine Failure" causes the vehicle to have 0 Movespeed, and only appears on vehicles with less then 50% HP.
If the vehicle gets repaired and has more the 50% HP, the Malfunction will be removed.


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Last edited by Namorax on Fri 6 May - 2:30; edited 2 times in total
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vV_O
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 2:01

I like the idea, but not neutral. Explosives and even non-friendly fire spells harm neutrals. Maybe invuln & neutral?

Also, some players may try to abuse this by blocking off paths with these neutral/invuln units.

Killing them is a maybe, would this effect non-returnables ?

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Namorax
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 2:06

We're talking about summons... If they die -> Re-Summon them.

When a Player leaves a vehicle, just give back control to the original owner.
As if they're on Stand-By until the hero leaves the vehicle.
But I still prefer the destruction of them. If you're a summoner, stay outside your tank and fight. Only hide when you're about to drown in creeps.

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Last edited by Namorax on Thu 5 May - 2:10; edited 1 time in total
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Nova
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 2:07

Minimum range limitation for repair might work without triggering. Forgot thats BS for abilities.

Yeah removing the ability itself is the easiest solution, just check for bugs.

As for summoners, sounds more of a hero balance problem.





Last edited by Nova on Thu 5 May - 2:17; edited 1 time in total
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Namorax
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 2:12

The summoners themselves are fine, its just the combination of "Hiding in a tank" + "Using Summons to fight" is imba.
Wasn't that the reason for the Fuelsystem?

But I also think that auras should be deactivated while a hero is in a tank. If you remove auras, you can remove repair while you're at it.

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Nova
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 2:18

The concept of summoning effective, expendable, easily replaceable units in a survival game seems broken to me, just giving a dev. perspective. The vehicle here is just the "amplifier" to this imbalance.

edit:
In NOTDA, mere civilians can be used in this way, even without vehicles, and they're not even summons.
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Namorax
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 2:24

thats why I suggested an "A.I.Core" for the Dronemaster back then. You had to retrieve the Core whenever the summon dies before you can re-summon it. But it was never implemented, so thats why we're here today^^

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 3:02

I don't think repair even works inside vehicles in the first place it's just a trigger checking for repair on the hero then adding hp regeneration to vehicles:

Case and point; Combat Engineer outside vehicle repairs at 2 hp/sec, but inside a vehicle this receives a MAJOR boost to the repair speed somewhere around 20 hp/sec though I could be wrong the point still stands of it getting close to a ten times boost when the hero enters a vehicle.

If you remove this system completely and make it so a hero can only repair while a PASSENGER in the vehicle insta-nerf right there.
And summoners inside vehicles could be nerfed by only letting the summons walk certain amount away from the vehicle summoner is in.

Side Note: Isn't it "Nerf" not "Nerv"?
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 3:07

The problem isn't having tank (HERE) and having spawns (over there).

It's the combination of having summons + the tank, is what I believe he means.

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Once bitten, twice.....zombie
The rset can be a toatl mses and you can slitl raed it whotiut pleborm. Tihs is bseacue the huamn mnid deos not raed eevry lteter by ilsetf, but the wrod as a wlohe.
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Namorax
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 3:34

Dont make things complicated Drig:

The vehicle has no collision, which allows jk to "hide" the hero under the vehicle model. He's still there and all his autocast abilities are still working, even if the player cant select the hero and use abilites. Why should jk add another unecessary trgger when the map is already overflowing?

PS: and the "Nerv" is a wordplay. "Nerv" can mean "to annoy" or "to get on someones nerves".
And besides, does it really matter?

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Drigonizer
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 3:56

I always assumed heroes were thrown outside the map when they enter a vehicle as the driver, didn't know that the hero was hidden "under" the vehicle.

And I was talking about a trigger I believe exists but am not sure the repair rate of Combat Engineer changes when inside a vehicle, Its something that really stuck out.

Playing with a 100k xp guy who chose CE and I chose SA when his towers got hit and he started to repair it would take forever to get a decent amount of hp back on them.
Later on I played with a guy who picked CE and got in the Frozen Sword when it got hit the hp would go up INSANELY fast.

^This is where my belief of that trigger comes from^
Does this trigger actually exist though?
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Nova
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 5:29

vV_O wrote:
The problem isn't having tank (HERE) and having spawns (over there).

It's the combination of having summons + the tank, is what I believe he means.

That's what he means, yes, but the root of the problem lies in one of the variables, not the operation, you can't really do much about the operation.

@summons, I agree with the revoking control of summons when out of range, looks like a nice idea. In contrast, instantly revoking control of summons when entering a vehicle is game ruining.
@repair, it's logical to repair armor plating while inside of vehicle, but highly absurd to repair it as effectively as being outside, maybe allow repair only up to like 20% hp, and at a lot slower rate. I'd just disable while inside vehicles it all together to save useless triggering.

Spoiler:
 

Of-course, there is also the player skill/intelligence factor, if only 1/10 games this happens in an OP manner, maybe this isn't such a big issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 5:41

The steady balance I see, is the current Fuel system (maybe buffed a tad, from what the community seems to want).
Temporary control of vehicles until refueled through the manner of tracking down tanks.

With the new zombies, I don't know why anyone would want to reduce their speed by piloting one of those tanks anyway -shrug-

Heck, idk, add a gas station to the town lol.

_______________________________

WHO WAN'S THIS DAWG!?


Once bitten, twice.....zombie
The rset can be a toatl mses and you can slitl raed it whotiut pleborm. Tihs is bseacue the huamn mnid deos not raed eevry lteter by ilsetf, but the wrod as a wlohe.
-END TRANSMISSION-
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jk2pach
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 11:21

Ah, there we go. Gas station is a nice idea!

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Nova
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 15:47

I'm curious, how will adding a gas station nerf vehicles? Is the station depletable?

Doesn't look like this will solve the problems in the first post.

From my perspective, vehicles are a big part of RC, and as such should not be nerfed too much.
Summons are lesser part, therefore nerfing them is more expendable.
In short
Nerfing vehicles will hurt (a lot?) more players than nerfing summons. Butthurt players will quit the game.

Then again, if my perspective is wrong, then reverse the above Razz
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vV_O
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 17:06

jk2pach wrote:
Ah, there we go. Gas station is a nice idea!

I've got plenty. I have this idea for a class called War Designer Wink (joke, but serious about the g.station)

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WHO WAN'S THIS DAWG!?


Once bitten, twice.....zombie
The rset can be a toatl mses and you can slitl raed it whotiut pleborm. Tihs is bseacue the huamn mnid deos not raed eevry lteter by ilsetf, but the wrod as a wlohe.
-END TRANSMISSION-
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jk2pach
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 18:21

Fuel system remains exactly the same. The balance is to look into the fuel production.

I found an easy and coherent one: M35 Fuel Tanker, which now are able to deliver fuel Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 21:00

I have no problems with a Gas Station. But i still think repair should be deactivated (and summons killed/neutralised) when a hero is inside a vehicle.


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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 22:25

jk2pach wrote:
Fuel system remains exactly the same. The balance is to look into the fuel production.

I found an easy and coherent one: M35 Fuel Tanker, which now are able to deliver fuel Smile

lol does this mean Fuel Tankers work like peasants to a goldmine (being gas station)?

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WHO WAN'S THIS DAWG!?


Once bitten, twice.....zombie
The rset can be a toatl mses and you can slitl raed it whotiut pleborm. Tihs is bseacue the huamn mnid deos not raed eevry lteter by ilsetf, but the wrod as a wlohe.
-END TRANSMISSION-
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Namorax
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Thu 5 May - 22:31

Does that mean we need a 2nd player to drive the tanker around? A rolling bomb?

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Fri 6 May - 1:37

how about just putting creeps in game like 'Titans' that will deal 2-3x damage to vehicles, while dealing normal damage to marines? Or giving vehicles smth like fractures, poisonings and so on, but calling it engine failure, punched wheel or smth like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Fri 6 May - 1:53

I honestly like the approach Delta is thinking. Hindering the vehicles would be better than the current fuel system and would probably be more balanced.
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Fri 6 May - 1:55

Supported. I'll change the 1st post so jk has everything in one place.

First Post redone:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Fri 6 May - 10:05

i agree with all the changes except the autorepair deactivation. with the fuel system the biggest problem wasnt at story mode, but at last stand. u couldnt reach base if it was too far and even there every10 sec u would be dropped from tank if u didnt have fuel.fuel system made ls unplayable, and thats the ONLY problem, as the modes that were being played was story and ls.removing fuel system and deactivitaing autorepair wont change anything at ls. so story will be the only mode to be played again, and there u dont need tanks to survive.i used to play 2-3st nm games with ssuul and then for a "break" we were going ls nm. now we cant, so i am rly tired of st and i play rc less and less.i think this problem will grow if st is the only mode "available"
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PostSubject: Re: Suggestions for Vehicles   Fri 6 May - 10:15

VehicleS arent the only One to Tank ls, a firebat,hs can do this Job too. Maybe Not As good As a frozen Sword, but its still better than no Tank
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